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Welcome to the well.
At the well we meet Finnish Christian adults
with every visitor three times.
Now we have the third and the last meeting with
Reverend Kalevi Lehtinen.
He is the man who became full time evangelist at the end of 1980.
Before that he was also able to lead an organization
“cambods crusade for Christ” in Europe for 10 years.
Welcome Kalevi lehtinen - Thank you
You have traveled all over the world
and touched people's hearts city after city, crusade after crusade,
over and over again meeting new people.
What is it to see when people come for Christ?
It's like a pay day about the work what I have done. I rejoice greatly.
I will never get used to that when I realize
those people are not passive who become active.
But they come from darkness to light and from death to life;
they will have an eternal life.
For me this is extremely real.
I understand that Kingdom of God will increase with those people.
Angels in heaven rejoice for one sinner who repents.
And then my heart rejoices with that.
What is it when nobody accepts a call for God?
It has happened many times.
Just last week when I gave an alter call nobody came forward.
All of them were already Christians although
there were many at present It does not hurt me
if nobody accepts a call.
I thank God that they are your children and
I am glad I can tell them about You.
Sometimes I realize that there are people who distinctly long for God
but can't find out by themselves that they could fully trust in Christ.
Then I get anxious if I have not been able to bring Christ so
lovingly and approvingly that people have not found trust in Christ.
God is love.
Why then a human being doesn't know how to give his life to the Lord?
Because God is love perfect love.
A human being is a sinner. It means an attitude problem.
A human being is negligent negative towards God.
From that follows wrong views from God.
He will see God as sadistic, strict, punishing
like a policeman who catches a criminal.
Then these wrong views prevent true views from loving God.
This time we will talk about Finland and Europe. Where is Europe going?
You have traveled all over the world.
Your headquarters is in Germany but you are a Finn.
Now when you will turn 70. Has this traveling been wort while?
Yes it has. I want to be faithful to my calling.
I don't think I have greatly changed Christian's situation in Europe.
This is enormous nation movement in the whole Christian church in Europe.
I am just a disappearing part. I can do only my part.
You have to accept that everything doesn't depend on you.
Otherwise you become “bigger” than you are.
Europe is in a difficult place at the moment.
The political and economical value is diminishing.
Nobody listens Europe. It is a backward continent.
Somewhere in south east Asia economy is growing very rapidly,
political influence is going up.
The influence of the United States is getting bigger.
Europe doesn't know what it is!.
The same is happening with it's spiritual life.
Europe is so called mankind's sick child.
In the world the number of Christians will grow
30 ― 40 million in the year. In Europe every day
about 4500 people will leave a Christian congregation.
Europe is the only continent where Christianity is losing it's power.
Christianity is marked as an institution of the past.
The political leaders can't choose a Christian for a responsible work
if he has Christian principles.
So this type of standstill is the regrettable fact in
Christian circles in Europe.
That is seen especially in Protestant world;
in the middle and north Europe.
What is the reason for that?
I believe there are a number of reasons.
First one is that our churches have institutionalized.
They grow to be religion care facilities.
There people are not committed to Christian message.
People expect services in need for baptismal, wedding and funeral.
People think therefore the church exists.
The image of the church has weakened and become smaller.
People do not know.
Secondly education philosophers have influenced
especially protestant churches in Europe from inside.
At the end of the last century they determined
the boundaries of the science.
Only that what can be studied with scientific methods and
what is in our reach. What is outside the studying and
outside metaphysics from that we can't know anything.
The churches believed that.
A great part of our theology try to explain that you can talk about
the view of God but not of God because you can't study God.
And when you can't study Him you can't believe the stories
of the New Testament and the miracles.
All of them try to study as if there would not be God.
The work of theologians don't accomplish enough for people
so that they could find strong faith in Christ.
Of course the scientists say that we can't make a science starting
with that presumption of God's existence.
Yes, it's like that but if we start with a presumption that there is no God,
it is not possible in science.
How they can honestly study if they beforehand take
some alternatives away! But that possibility that
God exists and all the happenings in the Bible
should be taken in consideration.
In this area our Christian churches are in a weak position.
In relation to using lots of money, building institutions and
with big staff can be accomplished a little.
On the other hand our foundation: that we should believe in Christ
and we should be honestly seeing each other as an equal.
And we should believe the message.
These two prevent the growth of the church and retaining it.
People of today very tightly own this type of thinking that God doesn't exist?
We have already as a child been emphasized at school with
scientific thoughts that we do not need to take God into consideration.
We were not taught that God created the world
in some biology lesson.
This option was not taken into a consideration;
how life was born or how the world was created.
They didn't even mention that some could have that belief and
that could be possible.
Text books chose one of 50 theories what was available.
And that's what they teach.
When you travel in different countries. Do other nations have a different
mentality when thinking of God's existence?
Very clearly. I was in Namibia in July and talked with one preacher.
I told him that many people in Europe do not believe in God.
He was surprised how they can live that way.
All people believe in God;
laymen and theologians without any difference.
Catholic Europe has a stronger knowledge than Protestant Europe.
There we can see a dimmer of hope.
I am thinking about that worldwide youth gathering where
Pope Benedictus XV1 talked to 800 000 young people in Koln.
He said'” Open your hearts to God and let Jesus Christ surprise you.”
And the young people cheered!!!
I wish that our church leader and leaders would do the same.
If nations differ from each other what about time?
Has there been different longing for God in different times?
Do you miss back to 1970 when we had a revival in Finland?
I don't because I live fully in this time.
The young people of today are more open minded to talk about Jesus
and God than any other generation I know.
They don't give you much feedback for institutions, authorities,
making them feel guilty and with programs.
If you approach them with your personal experience and
your own findings or discussing, that is worth while.
They are open minded and able to discus.
I feel this is the right time for gospel among young people.
There is a great response if we find the right way to tell the gospel.
What do you mean about an experience that
young people understand that better?
Young generation have lost their faith to a generally accepted truth.
In America 30 years ago when university students were asked
what is the most known Bible verse?
They would say John 3:16
“So God loved the world that He gave His only begotten son”
But today they would answer, Matthew 7:1
“Do not judge or you too will be judged“
Everybody has right to believe in their own way and
everybody has their own personal truth.
There is not a generally accepted truth.
Then the truth has already been broken into pieces.
There we will find it's own problems.
Those God given values can't be chosen from the sandwich table.
Young people look for their own experience;
is this true in my case.
If they find it's sounding board my own experience “vibration”
what I tell them it will get their heart tremble.
The message will go through; we are tuned in together.
Then it's possible to tell the gospel. We need a new approach.
The message doesn't go through with repeated happenings.
Rather by means of mystery, comparison, music and
personal experience.
What kind of evangelical happenings or situations they could be?
And what type or style?
I appreciate a lot young people's new gospel, these many bands.
They can play the heavy metal music.
But when their heads are bowed for prayer before they enter the stage
It tells me that they are open to God's work and want to tell that.
Sometimes in 1970 I met many bands who were burnout and cynical;
as their own stars.
I see a humble attitude when you tell them
what you have experienced by yourself.
That will go through.
I am an old fellow but I love to preach in young people's festivals,
schools and concerts.
If I am honest and tell what I believe and what I experience
and what Jesus can give.
And I value those young people and they will feel that I value them.
The message will go through from heart to heart splendidly.
Let's return back to Europe. Where Europe is going?
Europe has a power religion.
It is not Christianity Islam or New Age but materialism.
An European believes that money brings you happiness.
High income possessions is on the top of their priorities.
It is a religious belief same as in this cartoon
”Uncle Scrooge” swimming in his gold coins.
This is one belief. The second is hedonism;
all whatever brings you pleasure that is right.
The third is a general apathy, no hope, everything stays the same.
Unemployment stays the same.
Europe is among 9-10 top suicide countries in the world.
It tells you people don't feel well.
Only these alternatives are available. None of them is enough.
The future looks dim. Europe is standing still.
There is no clear direction which way to go.
For instance Europe's economy has not found a solution
the same with unemployment.
Christian congregations have not found the key
in order for churches to grow.
The growth happens somewhere within Roman Catholic,
Pentecostal church, Christian movements,
and new congregations.
But big Protestant churches are losing members
also their active members.
I don't know how to ask this question because it's so difficult.
What could be solution for this?
I belive that ..
you need to live completely for Jesus.
The more people catch the fire the more hope we have.
When the fire catches on it will spread.
We need to give up controlling.
Generally spiritual issues are controlled.
There is a thought that I am responsible but
this will prevent a growth of the church.
A flame of a candle can be controlled but we can't control a forest fire.
I am praying a forest fire in Europe,
the work of God's Spirit which controls us not that we control Him.
We need to release in church pew sitting frozen capital
in other words parishioners.
Those who are in spender's position, as object of a sermon and divine service.
We need to release them to be fully capable Christians
who tell outside the church the gospel.
This is my big vision.
For this I want to contribute the years that I have left.
Not so that I would be preaching but
I could instruct ordinary people to be witness for Christ.
And instruct those who then multiply this by
instructing their own groups.
This is the process where we are right now.
And I am so enthusiastic about this.
You truly want to be in Finland and want to instruct Finnish people. Why?
I am Finnish. Compared to middle Europe
in Finland spiritual atmosphere is much more open.
You can't change attitudes of German people.
Resistance of general change is higher than in Finland.
In Finland we'll find more innovation more willingness to change.
In Europe Finland is the most open country in spiritual level.
In our country the history of tremendous big revivals is found.
The mental image what we learn about Christianity in schools;
spiritual summer conferences where will be tens of thousands of people.
Christianity is something big.
It's not this meeting place in a back yard of a variety store
where 5 bitter and withdrawn people show up.
As it is often somewhere in the middle Europe
where a grand cathedral stands empty.
We have a picture in our mind that God can do something big.
When I moved to Germany 31 years ago.
I went to talk with some German pastors about that dream that
we could have a revival here in Europe.
They didn't understand what I was talking about.
They didn't have that reference frame in their mind.
If you have never seen or lived that. You don't know what it is.
Could it be something dangerous!
If it is something uncontrollable then it will be felt as a threat.
I realized how much we Finnish have gotten
during these 250 years in the history of revivals in our country.
Still today we have that foundation where we can build.
Finland could be a predecessor to show this new fire of the Spirit.
And to show what it could be to people of today and to society.
When you are talking about that reference frame of revival
which we have in nation's memory.
Twist from iron wire what a revival has been in Finland?
Some 14 year old girl somewhere in the fields experiences
all of the sudden the Holy Spirit.
This turns her heart upside down.
She becomes aware of her sin.
She runs and proclaims: ”Repent, God is here “
Distress catches on all the others and they seek for God.
It's like Pentecostal which spread from house to house.
Like a meeting of Tolppa where people were working
in their hay field and the Holy Spirit filled that place
It started from powerful experience, living with God,
the knowledge of His presence.
It isn't that we always go to church and nothing is going to change.
All of the sudden there are people who have been touched by
the Holy Spirit.
People became aware of their sin when Lestadius was preaching.
Then this movement started to spread.
Or when Paavo Ruotsalainen - just an ordinary pheasant -
got the touch of the Holy Spirit. Many preachers followed him.
He didn't have any theologian schooling. He was a spiritually wise man.
It started with a blacksmith Hogman from Jyvaskylä
who was able to give Paavo the keywords
”One is missing from you and all the others beside that;
the inner knowledge of Christ.”
Paavo started to look for that and understood that
Christ has to be experienced personally.
That is extremely important.
We could find many happenings like this.
A fire started from a small beginning to spread.
This always demands one person whom God picks up and meets.
The person who dares to take a risk.
He is an exception from the group, he is misunderstood and he is a rioter.
In every revival there has been a pioneer who has been a rioter
who breaks down the system in the midst where he's been living.
From these revival movements has grown large movements.
Every summer 200 000 people gather in summer conferences.
Although many of them have lost or are losing nature of revival but
they stay as traditional movements.
Still today there a gospel lives on.
From one person starts a revival?
Oswald Smith said:
”God chooses an individual but devil chooses a committee”.
Have you during your traveling seen these revival nests in Europe and
elsewhere in the world?
Tse- movement where the founder, Rodgers was murdered recently.
In my opinion that was youth revival.
Also that Catholic youth day, young people's movement.
During the last 100 years the Pentecostal movement
has been a significant factor in Europe
particularly in northern countries like Sweden and Finland.
Perhaps stronger than any other country in Europe.
We have had youth revivals festivals of “Shore in sight ”
and “ Summer of Young people”
All these thousands of young people wouldn't show up
without the taste of the revival.
In Confirmation schools many young people became born again Christians.
I wish that their faith would grow stronger.
Last month I had a pleasure to be in Vivamo where big brothers
other leaders Confirmation school teachers from 60's got together.
They told how 40 years ago they met a living God and
that has carried them through all this time.
The fire is still burning.
I still want to return to that spiritual revival.
If the fire would catch on here in Finland
how could that be an example in Europe?
What would that demand that fire would catch on?
At the end it's the work of the Holy Spirit.
We can't order when the Holy Spirit fills a person.
He changes his priorities and the way how to approach people.
And he will make him as a radical.
We need clearly to become radicals,
get rid off thinking of institutionalizing.
Have a courage to work on people's terms.
Have a courage to leave a peaceful harbor and
leave for an open sea to a discovery trip to unknown.
If we remain standing we will wither and die.
Some of those who move on, hit a rock but not all of them.
Without going to new waters nothing new can't be found.
We need to forgive for those people who move on and
for their mistakes
It's respected if somebody moves on and looks for a solution
more respected than that who stands on the shore
looking and criticizing.
Somebody had said ”If you want to save a drowning person,
you need to jump into the water with him.
But there is no use if you can't swim better than a drowning person.
Kalevi Lehtinen thank you so much for these 3 interviews.
It's been an enormous privilege to talk with you.
I wish you God's blessings and His presence on all of your ways.
Thank you and same to you too.
In this way ends a series of 3 meetings with Kalevi Lehtinen.
Bey for now.
Subtitles: Marjatta Suurnäkki