Welcome to Jerusalem Studio!
As usual, Pekka Sartola is here with me.
Welcome! - Thank you.
We were discussing where to start today -
and the most current issue between Israel and Palestine -
is the recognition of Palestine that has come up a lot recently.
What do you think about this so-called boom of recognition?
Do we really always have to follow Sweden's example in everything?
The statement by Sweden's new Premier was a bit of a surprise.
He said early on in his speech: -
"And we will recognize the Palestinian State."
It has been welcomed among Palestinians -
as well as by Arab world, but also caused concern among those, -
who think about things from the perspective of peace.
Palestinians would like to see that they no longer need Israel -
in order to be recognized.
But that will never lead to anything good.
Considering that the lower house of the British Parliament -
also adopted a call to recognize Palestine, -
is there something bizarre in the atmosphere?
Like you said, it seems there is a boom on the way.
The decision of the British lower house -
is not binding for the government without the upper house.
Also some differing expert opinions were heard -
regarding the relevance of that vote at this time.
It reflects the general atmosphere.
Jerusalem is heavily involved in this picture.
Prophet Zechariah said about Jerusalem -
that at the end of times Jerusalem will be surrounded -
and all nations gather against it.
Jerusalem is often synonymous with Israel -
but it stands as a city all by itself as well.
It has the highest priority in the talks.
According to our former President Halonen, -
the Finnish government should recognize Palestine -
and grant it statehood.
According to her it would advance the two state solution.
How can this advance anything if everybody begins to recognize?
In my opinion, it does not advance it at all.
Abbas tried to escape issues important to Israel -
regarding the two state solution.
For Israel it is of utmost importance -
that Palestine recognizes Israel as the Jewish State.
Next are borders, security, refugees, Jerusalem's status.
All of these become irrelevant -
if all nations are about to grant statehood to Palestinians.
Where will the borders be drawn?
There can be no state without borders.
At the moment they are an observer state -
or a virtual state, if you wish.
Defining its status does not agree with the goals -
of the peace talks last year, -
that aimed at defining clear borders, dealing with security issues -
and the status of Jerusalem.
Now it is given as a present: Here you are, have your state.
What will you do with it?
Palestinians are not aiming at solving issues with Israel, -
but try different channels.
UN is one that they try to take advantage of.
UN has the notorious majority - 135-140 countries, -
2/3 of the votes, -
that would grant the statehood in a heartbeat.
Two years ago the Palestinians were granted observer status -
with a clear majority, as some countries abstained, -
in order to make the ratios and perspectives even clearer.
Which ever way we look at it ...
Let's take the Palestinian State on the West Bank.
Israel wants its own borders next to Jordan.
And also demilitarization - it cannot become another Gaza.
How can it be a viable entity?
It is an impossible idea without Israel's approval.
The negotiation partner should be a state.
But Palestinians do not have a functioning government -
that could even get along with itself.
How can they negotiate in such a feverish situation?
They don't have a government.
Hamas rules in Gaza, and PLO somewhat on the West Bank.
How can they get along, I don't know.
They're always fighting with each other about something.
Abbas cannot rule Gaza, -
which would be a prerequisite for a unified state.
Or will there be two states? Gaza with Hamas or something, -
and Palestine on the West Bank?
But they don't accept this either.
This whole area, in their opinion, is a unified Palestine.
I will read an interesting excerpt from a letter -
that you will talk about later.
PLO top member Zuheir Mohsen -
talks to a Dutch paper in 1977.
"There is no Palestinian nation.
Founding of the Palestinian State would cause the fight against Israel -
to continue for the sake of Arab unity.
In reality there is no difference between Jordaninans, -
Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese.
Palestinian nation is talked about -
only for political and tactical reasons.
As the Arab national interests -
call for the existence of a separate Palestinian nation -
only as a response to Zionism.
For tactical reasons Jordan, a sovereign state, -
with defined borders, cannot claim Haifa and Akko, -
but as a Palestinian, he can without question -
claim Haifa, Beersheba and Jerusalem.
The moment we claim the right for the whole Palestine, -
the Palestine and Jordan will become one."
You have studied these writings more closely. How do you comment?
From the beginning of 1970-ies or after the Six Day War -
Zuheir Mohsen was the commander of as-Sa'iqa, -
commander of PLO's Southern Command.
He was also member of PLO's Supreme Council.
So his statement is equal to that of our ministers.
They have not conisdered themselves Palestinians, but Jordanians.
They used to be Jordanians for the whole 19 years, -
when Jordan conquered West Bank from Israel in the Independence War,
and called it West Bank, and East-Jerusalem as well.
Current Palestinians used to be Jordanians then -
and participated in the Six Day War on Jordan's behalf -
to destroy areas that used to be outside of then Israel, -
which did not include West Bank.
When Israel won the war and drove out Jordan, -
the illegal occupier, from the West Bank, -
and Egypt from Gaza Strip, -
Israel united the territories into an area
allocated by the League of Nations.
Should the Palestinian State be founded in that area, -
it can only happen according to the mutual agreement -
and recognition of Israel and Palestinians, -
the defining of the borders and recognition by the UN.
The unilateral solution presented by Abbas is impossible.
Zuhair Mohsen's statement is true.
During the British Mandate, from 1917-1948, -
the Arabs living in the area did not consider themselves Palestinians, -
but either Syrians or Jordanians.
However, the Finnish media talks all the time -
about the occupying state.
And wasn't it the Danish imaam -
who called Israel the scapegoat
in the Gaza war?
It wasn't the Danish imaam, but the Secretary General of UN.
The Danish Imaam said on 12th of October, -
addressing all the Danish, -
Nordic and European Muslims, -
that Palestine cannot be divided.
He meant the whole area from Jordan until Mediterranean, -
Israel included.
"Palestine cannot be divided. It is Islam's holy land.
Jerusalem is Islam's holy city and the air is holy for Islam -
and its people are holy for Islam.
That is why Abbas cannot divide the land.
He cannot share the land with the offspring of monkeys and pigs."
Islam considers Jews the offspring of monkeys and pigs.
Such outrageous things are said in Islam's name.
That phrase is actually from Koran and is thus binding for them.
Such statements are made in the Western civilization.
They cannot offend the other party any deeper.
How can they think that they could determine borders -
in brotherly spirit and live in peace? - It is impossible.
Already many generations have been raised -
to learn such things from birth - Jews are occupiers, -
opponents of Islam, offspring of monkeys and pigs, -
most despicable for Allah.
How can this setting change?
By signing a paper and starting coexistence?
It is completely impossible.
Lets talk about the UN Secretary General.
He said that Israel is to blame for the Gaza conflict, -
as Israel has occupied Gaza and blocked life in Gaza.
When Israel gave up Gaza in 2005, there were no borders or fences.
Israeli Army and the settlements had been there for 19 years, -
actually 30-40 years already.
There were no restrictions to free movement.
When the rockets began to be fired and terrorist attacks started -
also the fence was erected.
But Israel has not occupied it.
The word 'occupation' here is against all definitions -
and everything that goes on there.
How can UN Secretary General say that Israel occupies Gaza?
They just guard borders to keep illegal activities out of their country.
In case of occupation Israeli soldiers would be in Gaza.
'Occupation' is an international term. I looked it up on purpose.
"Occupation is a measure where an army of a state
conquers and takes control over another state."
And then it explains how occupation can happen -
in connection with different wars.
According to that definition, -
Israel is not an 'occupier' as there is no state, -
the territory of which it has conquered.
Jordan occupied the West Bank. Israel drove the illegal occupier out.
Israel did not occupy Jordan -
as nobody had recognized the West Bank. The same goes for Gaza.
Using terms like that is tendentious and aims at demonizing Israel.
The 50-day Gaza war -
brought about damages of about 5,5 billion USD, -
or around 100 million USD per fighting day.
It was probably initiated by Hamas' leadership, -
the people were not much involved.
So all the surrounding states and others, -
US included, -
are giving funds freely, without asking many questions.
Giving funds through pledges -
does not yet mean cash on the account.
It was a symbolic gesture, -
expressing that Palestinians were the suffering party.
Nobody offered Israel any compensation -
for the damage done by the rockets.
Once again, the Palestinians and Hamas -
got a symbolic victory on the international arena.
"See, the whole world supports us and gives us funds."
They should monitor very carefully where this money will go.
During earlier wars, -
when funds were given by EU, UN, World Bank and US, -
Hamas used part of it to make tunnels and getting weapons.
Israel counted the cost of the tunnel construction -
at least 3 million USD per tunnel, -
and as there was over 50 of them, -
it means 150 000 million USD, that was meant for apartments, -
kindergartens and hospitals, but they were turned into tunnels.
Once again we have the same element: -
Who monitors the area controlled by Hamas?
How are the funds and building materials controlled
that are taken there?
I read somewhere that Hamas leaders have expressed aggression -
and encitement against Israel.
No reconciliation or calm can be detected in their speeches.
I read the same article in an Arab newspaper.
They were even mocking Israel: "We have 20 tunnels left.
You were not able to defeat us."
The whole setting is wrong.
Israel mediates electricity to Gaza for no charge.
Israel helps them every way by transporting building materials, -
medical supplies, food etc, -
and they always get blamed.
Israel gets no recognition.
They consider it their right as Israel is the occupier -
and must therefore take care of the land.
Obama and others have condemned the continued building plans -
in Jerusalem and elsewhere, -
which should be allowed.
Obama and Kerry expressed their position about it.
It may have been about 2 years ago, before the current talks began, -
that Israel agreed to freeze the construction in the area.
We're talking about 2600 apartments -
between Talpiot and Ramat Rahel kibbutz, -
which is officially Israeli territory, until agreed otherwise.
It is so-called Area C and is part of Jerusalem's suburbs.
According to Obama,
building apartments there is against international law.
Netanyahu announced the construction.
We can see from the map that this is part of Area C, -
which has been agreed between Israel and Palestinians -
to be under Israeli control until agreed differently.
Both must abide by that agreement.
USA should know things in depth, -
but they still talk about things as if they knew nothing.
This is baffling. These things are no secret.
They have monitored every deal and helped to sketch them, -
drawn maps etc. All of it is public.
There is no other valid agreement between Israelis and Palestinians -
besides Oslo 2, where a lot was agreed upon, -
but Palestinians have breached quite a bit of it.
The latest was submitting the application for statehood in UN.
Nobody cared. They can do whatever they want, -
but Israel is obligated to follow all the rules.
We will observe it all in future programs.
I would like to look at the ISIS issue for conclusion.
There are quite a few complicated issues in play
involving Turkey and others.
It is quite a difficult situation.
ISIS with its mode of operation has no future.
It has no friends.
It only has its own troops who fight for money.
They have no support from the people.
They have no recognition.
A few extremist groups, of course, recognize ISIL -
and want to join it, but they are all terrorist groups, just like ISIL itself.
Turkey is in an uncomfortable spot.
It fights against PKK, a Kurdish resistance group -
that aims for independence, -
and does not wish to help Kurds in Syria.
ISIS can massacre them freely -
as the West does not want to get involved either.
NATO cannot be there as Turkey will not allow -
NATO planes to use its air space to fly there.
Turkey is a NATO member, but can make independent decisions.
And Kurds, numbering about 30 million, -
live also in Syria, Iraq and Iran.
They are aiming at Kurdistan consisting of parts of four states, -
but they lack unity. Turkey is not a pioneer here -
and lets ISIL run rampant. Seems like a difficult situation.
Is it possible for the coalition to control the situation -
without deploying ground forces?
No, as it involves so many countries.
Iraq has a big enough army for it if it was armed properly.
Russia has also anounced plans to arm the Iraqi Army.
As most of the fighting happens in Syria -
and Syrian Army fights already over three years -
against rebels, it is fighting on two fronts.
Their army is not strong enough to overcome both of them.
There's a need for a strong external force -
that could unite Iraqi and Syrian ground forces -
in order to firstly fight ISIL.
Syria can continue dealing with its internal problems later.
US should lead the whole endeavor but it seems a bit outspread now, -
while Iran can freely continue building nuclear weapons.
Would you like to comment that for conclusion.
It is amazing how Iran has managed to do it again.
In a way, they are also fighting ISIL.
There are Shiites among Kurds -
and Iranian Army is also predominantly Shiite.
On the other hand they can do as they please -
with their nuclear program.
EU's foreign policy chief is about to change.
Lady Ashton is still involved together with her successor.
Decisionmaking is halted and everyone's attention is on ISIL.
Nobody cares about what's going on in Iran.
IAEA, International Atomic Energy Agency, -
is not allowed into Parchin, -
which is the likeliest place for Iran's arms industry.
A major explosion took place there -
that was felt dozens of kilometers away.
And no outsiders are allowed to investigate what really happened.
It was not a nuclear explosion, but some kind of a test gone awry.
Iran always seems to slip away from sanctions -
and requirements set for it.
The world is probably so complex -
that it is impossible to understand it all.
We have mentioned in our shows that Obama's leadership role -
has been wavering in the Middle East.
It began when he was supposed to attack Syrian government -
around a year ago, -
but slipped away with tail between his legs, -
as Saudi papers put it.
He came under fierce criticism, even more than before.
As a manager of the issues of the Middle East -
he has miserably failed.
We could continue for another half an hour, -
but we will do that next time.
Thank you, Pekka, for joining us, and sharing the flood of events.
We try to pick out the most relevant.
Thank you!
Translation: Monika Jaaguri