Welcome to Jerusalem Studio!
Every day we hear messages about events in Israel and Gaza.
Sometimes their conflict entails negotiations,
but usually mostly hostilies.
This is what we want to report about.
Welcome, Pekka Sartola!
At the time of recording this show
it was hoped that the ceasefire would last longer,
unfortunately, it was breached due to Hamas' rocket attacks.
Where are we today?
As you said, ceasefire was still supposed to hold,
but Hamas must have grown weary of the talks.
According to them, their demands were not met far enough.
We will look at them later.
So they launched five rockets at Beersheba.
Iron Dome intercepted two of them, three landed in open areas.
By now, one day later, already 30 rockets have been fired,
also Tel Aviv has been targeted, as well as Jerusalem,
not to mention areas closer to Gaza.
Israel had to respond, as they said they would,
and also called back their negotiators from Cairo.
For many Finns this has been a complicated topic.
Let's look at this history briefly.
How did this conflict come to be and what were the key events?
We must go back to 2004-2005.
2004 showcased George Bush's Roadmap project
which sought for the two state solution.
Roadmap did not contain any realistic alternatives
and crashed.
But at the time Bush put pressure on Ariel Sharon's government
to give up Gaza to PLO's Fatah.
Sharon agreed to it.
Current premier Netanyahu left the government then
declaring opposition to it as it would not lead to peace
in the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians.
He foresaw the overthrow of power.
Did Sharon hope for peace?
He wanted the world to see once
that they do not want to rule over Palestinians
but want them to live in peace.
Gaza was given up and 15 000 soldiers were withdrawn
who secured peace for the 8500 settlers living there.
Gaza was emptied of Israel and presented to Palestinians
so they could live there in peace.
It was a mistake.
US and EU also agreed that free elections will be held
in the whole Palestinian territories,
including West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem.
Fatah lost power to Hamas
who based their election campaign on the propaganda
that violence drove the Zionists out of Gaza,
thus the policy of violence works.
This propaganda had been pushed already for years and it worked.
Hamas got 60% of the votes
and was entitled to form the government.
Things escalated into a war between Fatah and Gamas in 2006.
Hamas took power by resorting to a military coup
and has been the sole ruler of Gaza since then.
How was Hamas able to market its ideology so well
that they got 60% of the votes?
Everybody's calculations were wrong.
Israel's intelligence echelon has admitted later
that they did not believe it was possible.
They thought that Fatah, who is considered more moderate,
will be able to practice politics that leads to peaceful coexistence
and secure victory at the elections.
But the people wanted to feel that they had won something
and Israel gave up Gaza to them.
Why did Hamas get so deeply rooted in Gaza
and is ruling the whole sector?
To answer this we must return to the War of Independence in 1948
when Egypt took power there and occupied Gaza for 19 years.
Egypt turned it into a haven for guerilla fighters
and some anti-social element.
This is where Arafat's and now Abbas' Fatah got started, as well.
It turned automatically into a cradle of violence
and many attacks were organized against Israel from there.
Today is just a natural continuity of Gaza's heritage.
Let's get back to the present and the acute situation there.
They have discussed in Egypt a truce deal suitable for both sides.
Who have been negotiating? Is Hamas involved?
They say in the West that Israel and Hamas are negotiating,
but that is not the reality.
Israel does not negotiate with terrorist organization Hamas.
Egypt is negotiating with Israel and is the mediator.
Egypt is negotiating with Islamic Jihad,
not directly with Hamas either,
as Muslim Brotherhood, Hamas' mother party,
has been declared terrorist group and illegal by Egypt.
Hamas dictates to Islamic Jihad who negotiates with Egypt
who in turn negotiates with Israel.
Israel does not negotiate with Islamic Jihad either
as that is a terrorist organization as well. It is quite a crooked setting.
You have collected some facts that have been discussed
but have not yielded any results.
Lets look at them briefly.
What have they agreed upon regarding fighting and attacks?
Or what has been proposed?
Naturally Egypt proposed for both parties to end violence -
Hamas should end rocket fire and Israel its counter attacks.
This has been the main criteria.
Other goals include bringing in humanitarian aid for Gaza.
Nobody denies that there is a huge humanitarian problem in Gaza.
All of it centers around security issues.
Israel wants to demilitarize Gaza and for Hamas to cease rocket fire
and terrorist attacks through the tunnels.
With that balance achieved
Israel is willing to remove restrictions,
expand fishing areas and increase the movement of goods.
Israel's whole negotiations agenda revolves around security issues.
Israel wants to help in every way to achieve a situation
where they can live in peace and Gaza would be rebuilt.
Israel's only requirement is for Gaza to be an area
that does not threaten their security.
Exactly. That was the main goal also in 2005.
They agreed with Fatah to give them Gaza
and for Fatah' to make sure to end the rocket fire
and terrorist attacks from there.
They would have never given up Gaza without that agreement.
They wanted to give them Gaza for peaceful living
and hoped for the same in return.
By now around 2000 civilians have been killed in Gaza.
Lets check some of the facts.
You have proof about the placement of weapons in Gaza.
It has not gotten much attention from the Western media.
Instead they have shown lots of images
and accused Israel for targeting UN schools,
hospitals and mosques and bombing civilian apartments,
and even graveyards.
It just means that these are the places
where rockets have been hidden and also launched from.
Hamas knows well that Israel has satellite surveillance
and knows seconds after rocket fire where did it emanate from
and their artillery will fire at it within minutes.
Hamas knows that placing rockets near civilian areas
leads to civilian casualties.
If that is not condemned morally, nothing will be condemned.
These are facts that can be proved.
Western and Finnish media
could get precise and true data about the situation.
Why do the news focus first on Israel's attacks and its casualties
and not tell the truth?
I wish I could answer that.
A good journalist will first cover what happened, why it happened
and then the consequences.
But focusing on Israel's casualties creates a picture for the audience
about Israel being the aggressor.
Only in the end of the news piece they might mention
that Hamas actually fired some rockets first.
Even the 30 rockets get labeled "some".
This somewhat tendentious setting has been formed over the years.
Hamas is very good at exploiting and manipulating media.
It is quite surprising as Israel should be the media expert
but Hamas beats them at this over and over.
Hamas has materials ready for media manipulation.
One of their leaders said a few weeks ago
that a father carrying a bleeding child in his arms
is a much better weapon than ten rockets fired.
They know the tricks and use it
to adapt the Western public opinion automatically against Israel.
Everyone thinks that when civilians, even children die,
and hospitals are targeted, it is wrong.
It IS wrong, but the setting should also present reasons for it.
Ceasefire was broken, no deal was reached.
What can be done there?
Events there will always lead to civilian casualties,
especially with Hamas' practice to use human shields.
It is true.
The most effective way to stop the fighting
is for Hamas to stop the rocket fire.
Israel will not respond as there's no reason for it.
They have clarely stated,
this being the third bigger conflict within last six years,
that they will respond to rocket fire, but not initiate it.
They are forced to respond
as they are committed to defend their citizens.
As the conflicts increase and things escalate
the more Israeli public opposes any peace initiatives
and talks with the Palestinians.
Hamas' has been defined as terrorist organization.
Both EU and US agree on that.
Is there any precedence in the world
that a terrorist organization and a democratic state
have signed an agreement on something?
Not before one of them gives up its goals
either the democratic state must give up pursuits of democracy
or the terrorist organization gives up its pursuits of being one.
What kind of solutions have been proposed by Arab countries?
What countries have been involved in the talks?
It is quite a unique situation in the Israeli history.
For the first time even the Arab League
that consists of 22 member countries, not exclusively,
but Syria, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, the Emirates,
all of them have taken a stand against Hamas.
Majority of Arab League has not condemned Israel, but Hamas.
They are looking to eliminate
the military wing of Muslim Brotherhood, i.e. Hamas in Gaza.
Hamas has armed itself over decades
with the help of Iran and Syria.
Syria has stopped its help, Iran continues.
This will never create a peaceful setting in the Middle East
for any negotiations.
Saudis are most worried and want good relations with Israel
as they are afraid of Iran's nuclear pursuits.
And Iran is the main supporter of Hamas.
There are many factors involved.
Now we also have ISIS coming from Syria and Iraq
and spreading quickly to the West Bank and even Gaza.
I have also noticed that
Obama was committed to Muslim Brotherhood,
Hamas being part of it, but Egypt wants to eliminate it.
What is this all about?
Obama miscalculated.
When the Muslim Brotherhood won the elections
and Mohammed Morsi became president,
it became clear that they would begin to introduce Sharia law
and draft a new legislation based on these medieval laws.
That did not go well with the army
that has always ruled Egypt.
Tourism decreased immediately, economy was about to bankrupt.
The Suez Canal was about to be closed for some states,
which would have affected economy as well.
Obama decided that this is a freely elected government
and did not want to understand
that the situation as a whole was intolerable.
Military coup followed and Muslim Brotherhood was declared illegal.
Obama still continued to support the former supposedly legal cabinet
and now he is between a rock and a hard place.
Russia rushed in to support Egypt as Obama withdrew US' annual aid
that was meant for Muslim Brotherhood government.
Quite often it is said that Israel has Gaza under siege
and it is completely closed off.
Quite many have insufficient info about this.
Is an ordinary Gazan family forced to stay within its borders
or are they allowed to travel?
They can travel if they have their papers and things in order
and they are not Hamas members or blacklisted.
60 000 Gazan Palestinians have escaped to Israel
during current conflict.
They could not have done it if Gaza was completely blocked.
Also Egypt has a certain blockade established against Gaza.
They firmly control the Sinai border at the Rafah checkpoint
in order to stop the arms smuggling from Sinai to Gaza.
Egypt destroyed at least 1700 smuggling tunnels under the border.
Great numbers of them were built over the decades.
Egypt also controls Hamas' power in a way,
but they will also let ordinary Gazans through the border
for shopping and errands.
At the Egyptian mediated talks
the restrictions were to be diminished gradually,
in proportion to the evidence that normal life is possible,
and Israel's security concerns were met.
Yes. Israel was willing to expand the fishing zone
up until 20 kilometers.
The same applied to the land borders.
In case of evidence of ceased rocket fire,
and Hamas' threat eliminated, Israel would open the borders more.
They have no reason to keep Gazans isolated.
The only reason for the blockade
is to keep terrorists infiltrating Israel.
Security is Israel's highest priority.
How do Israelis see the negotiations?
Are they united about the aims or do their opinions differ?
Of course there are differences.
There are quite a few hawks in Israeli government
and some are of the opinion that Netanyahu has been too mild.
Left wing Ha'aretz daily considers him a very week leader.
In my opinion, Netanyahu's actions have been on the money.
Had he aimed at the total destruction of Hamas,
it would have meant the deployment of 100 000 Israeli soldiers into Gaza
who would go through Gaza block by block
and destroy everything possible.
It would lead to an impossible bloodbath.
If that were to achieve a shallow peace,
it would be a huge moral loss for Israel.
Netanyahu wants to avoid that and give Hamas a chance.
Israel attacks only when it has to, but with increasing force.
They want Hamas to understand there's no games with Israel.
Israel wants security and Hamas claims
that they have to fire more rockets for Israel to stop the blockade.
It is a squirrel's wheel
where Hamas feels it has to be the last one to attack.
Is there no other end in sight
but that Hamas' power must be eliminated?
It only means their military leadership.
What methods do the neighboring countries have
to contain Hamas' power?
Countries that support Hamas by sending them funds and equipment
which maintains their military power,
Iran being the main sponsor,
must also be first blocked.
This politics can never continue.
Israel will never leave its land
no matter how many rockets are fired
and they will fire twice as much back.
When they are given the sense of security
that the people of Sderot and Ashkelon can live in peace
they have promised to relieve the blockade restrictions.
There's no other choice.
Even this will not bring a lasting and complete peace.
One generation of Palestinians has already been brainwashed
and indoctrinated to think that the Zionist occupant
occupies their eternal historic homeland
and must be driven out one way or another.
At least it was a good start towards it.
I have also followed the events around ISIS.
It came out of nowhere
and you said that their aim is also to occupy Gaza
and take as much ground around Israel as possible.
That would have Israel really in the corner.
ISIS was actually ISIL - Islamic State of Iraq and Levant.
Levant means Israel, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and Iraq.
Their aim is to spread into West Bank where they already have supporters.
Radical groups that don't care about human lives
sympathize with ISIL.
They can be found in Gaza and West Bank.
It will be a problem for Egypt and Israel
if they manage to spread into Gaza and Hamas joins them.
Civilians are the ones that have to pay for everything.
Our time is up again.
We will continue with current news in the future
and will follow the events closely. Thank you, Pekka!
Thanks for watching!
We will observe the situation and keep you up to date.
Translation: Monika Jaaguri