Welcome to Jerusalem Studio!
Our topic today is the Temple Mount and the commotion about it.
We will begin with a little bit of background info.
Welcome, Pekka Sartola!
The talks over Israeli-Palestinian borders etc
have been going on for 7 months.
What is the current situation according to your understanding?
Obama and Netanyahu are currently in Washington
where the US president attempts to pressure Israel
into as far-reaching concessions as possible.
And I stress 'pressure'
as Israel will most likely not give up easily on vital issues
like security, Jerusalem, borders etc,
about which the Palestinians have a completely opposite view.
Palestinians have hinted that they do not wish to continue talks
after their deadline in April, as they are done with concessions.
Is the US obsessed with finding some bait
to make them continue?
According to Palestinians the US should pressure Israel
into concessions which would keep them at the negotiation table.
We are talking about security, Jerusalem, borders, refugees
and recognition as a Jewish state, which is legitimate for Israel.
Palestinians however have refused
and never want to recognize Israel as a Jewish state.
It seems that Israel is always under pressure
and Abbas is the "teacher's pet", or at least it seems so to me.
The situation is out of balance.
It is truly out of balance. Even the Palestinians think so.
Their elected ruler is Hamas which has declared
that Abbas does not represent them and they will not accept any deals
signed by Abbas.
Almost half of the Palestinians support Hamas.
It is not granted
that all that Abbas wants will be accepted.
It appears that Hamas sees the 1967 borders
and Jerusalem as their capital only as an inevitable interim goal.
Their end game is to rid the region of the Zionists.
Yes, their charter declares that this is the first stage.
They are unable to make a blitz attack against Israel,
thus they must advance a step at a time
and I don't think they will succeed.
Recognizing the state is one of the major topics,
another one, perhaps even bigger, is the issue of Jerusalem.
You have studied Jerusalem and the Temple Mount for 40 years.
What sparked your interest for Jerusalem?
It began in the beginning of my faith life
when I stumbled upon a book by a Messianic Jew
that was about the end times and mostly about the Temple Mount
and how it is related to Daniel 9:24-27 prophecy.
My understanding about prophecies was very limited.
One sentence caught my attention:
When you see the third temple rising in Jerusalem,
set your things in order with God as the coming of Jesus is near.
It inspired me to study what was he talking about.
I got a bit "addicted" with the topic of Temple Mount,
professionally speaking.
You have been closely following whether something is going on there.
Exactly. I have a lot of material about the Temple Mount
and I have even thought about writing a book about it.
The events in recent years and even the recent talks
related to the Temple Mount seem to be indicating
that the biblical prophecies are about to unfold.
Who has jurisdiction over Temple Mount right now?
In the 1967 War the Old City and the Temple Mount
came under Israel's control. It is under Israeli jurisdiction.
But as the Israeli flag was raised on the mosque
and the chief rabbi declared that Jews have returned to their roots,
Moshe Dayan decided
to give the administrative control over the Temple Mount
to an islamic foundation,
not the ownership but administrative control over it.
So Jordan has administrative rights over the Temple Mount Plaza.
What has happened that in Israel and in the whole region
we see a storm in a water glass right now?
It is more than a water glass.
Before the peace process began last July
some Israeli ministers proposed that the goverment should begin
to plan the construction of the third temple in the area.
The catastrophic idea was crushed, but a couple of weeks ago
the same guys raised the subject in a different manner:
The control of the Temple Mt Plaza should be transfered to Israel.
That led to an explosion in the surrounding Islamic world.
Jordanian government began to discuss it immediately
and promised to annul the peace agreement with Israel
and end all diplomatic relations, should Israel proceed with this.
All of it over a pursuit that also others could pray there
and not only Muslims.
Right now it is forbidden for other faiths to pray there.
Jordan and Egypt are the only ones that have peace deals with Israel.
Jordan is prepared to give up all of its trade and other relations
just over that issue?
It is amazing how the West does not realize
how intense religious passions rule the area,
especially what comes to the Temple Mount Plaza.
It is not a real traditional Islamic holy site
as they like to present it. It was under Turkish control.
They've built one mosque there and there's the Dome of the Rock
and it is holy to them in some extent
but not to the extent they present it.
Koran does not mention Jerusalem once.
Is it correct to say that it is a center of conflict
for Judaism and Islam with its different god?
Especially from a spiritual standpoint.
So I am amazed at the ignoring of these spiritual aspects
that are constantly in plain view among the Muslims,
and also the Jews have been actively maintaining
their claims over it as their holy site of 3000 years.
God has revealed some things to us in the Bible
that also pertain to the Temple Mount, its future and holiness.
Forces resisting the will of God attempt to nullify it all.
Thus we are dealing with such basic conflicts here.
So the political peace talks seem to have entirely wrong weapons,
they don't touch upon spiritual aspects at all.
No they don't. They are on the background
molding the mentality and policies of the negotiators.
Everybody knows how far they are willing to go in all this.
For the Jews Jerusalem is extremely holy.
Had they lost it, the Jewish State would have been
very small and empty without it. It is very holy to them.
And this is the main purpose of the forces resisting the Bible
and Christianity.
What is EU's position in these matters
and what do they say about the Temple Mount?
They don't have a specific position on the Temple Mount issue
but maintain constantly that East Jerusalem
must become the capital of the Palestinian State.
This idea is not based on biblical thinking.
The Jewish perspective considers EU a Christian continent
consisting of Christian states
which share the same Bible with the Jews.
However their actions go completely against the Bible.
The Israelis think that the Europeans are not interested
in biblical viewpoints and rather support Islamic positions
what comes to Jerusalem and the Temple Mount.
Trust has not been able to develop between Jews and Christians.
The Jews cannot trust the Europeans to act
based on the Word they claim to profess.
It is unfortunate that the word 'cross'
means the same as 'swastika' for the Jews.
It is a great drama for them
that the Christian Europe allowed holocaust,
and that the Orthodox Russia allowed pogroms,
that the Christian Europe allowed the Black Death, inquisition etc;
that the crusades were made in the name of Christianity.
All this reflects deeply the understanding of the Jews
about Christianity and how it is practiced.
The marginal group of born again, Bible-knowing, believing Christians,
are a small minority,
whom they cannot differentiate from the mainstream Christianity.
Also the replacement theology ingrained in Christianity
has forgotten the Jewish roots.
Unfortunately replacement theology thinks
that God has left all the curses on the Jews
and transfered the concept of 'God's chosen possession'
along with all the blessings only to Christians.
The Bible does not teach that
but the institutional church seems to maintain that position.
You have studied the topic of Temple Mount
in the light of the Bible for years. What have you found out about it
and also regarding the construction of the third themple?
One of the most interesting things is Salomon's words about it.
1 Kings 9:2-3: "The Lord appeared to Solomon a second time,
as he had appeared to him at Gibeon. And the Lord said to him,
“I have heard your prayer and your plea,
which you have made before me.
I have consecrated this house that you have built,
by putting my name there forever.
My eyes and my heart will be there for all time."
The Temple Mount in Jerusalem is extremely important to God,
even though there's no temple there for the time being.
God said "for all time". God does not change His words.
That is quite a strong word. - Yes, it is.
That is our backbone and foundation
why we must maintain the topic of Temple Mount
based on this Scripture and not follow the mainstream
which would rather yield it to the Muslims.
What does the Bible say about Jerusalem
that is mentioned numerous times.
What does the Bible say related to our context?
Jerusalem is mentioned approx. 950 times in the Bible
and not once in Koran.
It is clear that it is related to Judaism and Christianity.
All the main events of humankind's salvation history
took place there
and the third temple will be built there one day.
Jerusalem will also become a center for the Anti-Christ one day
and the marks of the beast will be distributed from Jerusalem.
Our Saviour will return one day to Jerusalem's Mount of Olives.
We cannot cut out Jerusalem from basic Christianity,
it is an inalienable part of it.
What does Zechariah say about Jerusalem
and things related to it?
It seems that we are in a situation mentioned in Zechariah 12:2-3:
“Behold, I am about to make Jerusalem a cup of staggering
to all the surrounding peoples."
We could apply it to EU, UN, Quartets etc.
"The siege of Jerusalem will also be against Judah.
On that day I will make Jerusalem a heavy stone for all the peoples."
It will be God's measuring rod for all the people.
"All who lift it will surely hurt themselves.
And all the nations of the earth will gather against it."
Jerusalem is one of the key issues of the peace talks.
It seems that UN, EU and Russia, they all want to give Jerusalem
as a capital to a group whose main national goal
is to destroy Israel.
It is a very serious issue.
It seems like an abomination in God's eyes.
It is truly shameful.
It is shameful from the perspective of His revelation and will
especially for Christians
who do not seem to care about His word.
'Shameful' is quite an appropriate expression from God's perspective.
The Bible also talks about Jesus as a 'cornerstone'.
It is similar to what has been said about Jerusalem.
People also stumble on Jesus.
Some years ago a survey was done among the public in Helsinki
asking whether they believe in God.
70-80% of them believed in some higher power.
To the question 'what does Jesus mean for you?'
they answered: 'Jesus was a good teacher;
and accomplished a great deal'.
The third question, whether Jesus was their personal Saviour,
almost irritated them:
"I am a Christian. Isn't it obvious?!"
Also the topic of Jesus will divide the mankind the same way
as the issue of Jerusalem in a slightly different context.
The way of Christ is a narrow one.
The road and the gate are narrow and few are they that go through it
but the destination is great.
Lets look at the prophecies about Jerusalem and the Temple Mount.
Ezekiel says some things.
Temple Mount is a very powerful source of inspiration for Ezekiel.
Ezekiel 38-39 talk about the War of Gog.
Ezekiel 43:1-2 talks about the Eastern Gate.
"Then he led me to the gate, the gate facing east. And behold,
the glory of the God of Israel was coming from the east.
And the sound of his coming was like the sound of many waters,
and the earth shone with his glory."
He comes through the Eastern gate. Ez 44:1-2 says the same:
“This gate shall remain shut; it shall not be opened,
and no one shall enter by it, for the Lord, the God of Israel,
has entered by it. Therefore it shall remain shut."
When we look at the Eastern Gate from the Mount of Olives
we see the Golden Gate closed by bricks as the Word says.
We have discussed the partition of Israel etc.
In regard to the Millennial Kingdom
what kind of stages are ahead of us?
The vision of prophet Joel seems to point to our times:
At the end of times He will gather all the nations
and judge those that have divided His land.
We are in the middle of this process.
The nations will face the judgment and the land will be divided
as the Bible predicts it, for a time.
It is not a terminal event or the will of God.
He says that the nations have divided His land.
He talkes about ownership
and says they have gone against His will
and divided something that belongs to Him.
This is a serious issue. - Yes.
We as people fight over borders etc
but when we are talking about the Creator of the universe
who has the copyright over it all
and has destined certain areas for habitation for certain people,
we have no right to interfere.
If in different political situations
we only take from the Bible things that please us
we have gone completely astray in understanding the will of God.
In the light of the current events like the crises in Ukraine, Syria,
the developments in Iran and other explosive places,
where are we time-wise?
I should have prophetic insight
to divide the times into chronological stages like that
but we are clearly moving towards the fulfilment of these things.
The process is so far gone and the whole world is involved.
They want to create the Palestinian State
and make Jerusalem its capital. I doubt that the latter will happen.
But the land will be divided
and becomes a catalyst for several other events.
There are many other prophecies yet to be fulfilled,
like Psalm 83 which is related to Syria and Lebanon.
The issue of the Temple Mount also involves Jordan.
So we are headed towards these things.
Israel does not have too many allies in the region.
No, they don't. I think God has allowed it
so they would rely on Him as a nation.
When they look to Him whom they have pierced
and call upon Him as their help, God will say: You are my people.
Then He will turn their fate.
Nothing easy in sight for Israel and its government
during upcoming months.
Israel's government coalition is quite broad
and includes groups from wall to wall.
One Scripture that enlightens God's will for Israel
as well as for the Palestinians and the surrounding people
is Ez 47:21-22:
"So you shall divide this land among you
according to the tribes of Israel. You shall allot it as an inheritance
for yourselves and for the sojourners who reside among you
and have had children among you.
They shall be to you as native-born children of Israel.
With you they shall be allotted an inheritance
among the tribes of Israel."
This is the will of God also for the Palestinians -
all is mutual when they serve the same God.
Namely when the God of Israel is being served,
that is the key issue. - Yes, it is.
Thank you, Pekka!
We will continue in four weeks most likely with some current topics.
Thank you, dear viewers! We will be back in four weeks!
Translation: Monika Jaaguri