Welcome to Jerusalem Studio!
This is the first show in 2014 which is going to air every month.
Welcome also to Pekka Sartola!
Before we discuss the Israeli- Palestinian peace process,
let's talk a little about recently deceased Ariel Sharon.
Tell us, what kind of man he was and what were his achievements,
and what was the situation like before and after him?
There are several documentaries and books about Ariel Sharon.
He was one of the most important politicians and soldiers
in Israeli history.
He participated in everything. He was called a bulldozer.
He pushed his decisions through, which caused both admiration
as well as hatred, as is usual with powerful men.
He had a great affect on Israel.
He was a general and participated in all Israeli wars.
Then he went on to politics.
He was the prime minister in 2001-2006.
Prior to that he held three other minister's posts,
during which he had both positive and negative achievments.
One of the pivotal events was withdrawing from Gaza in 2005,
which launched his final countdown.
What happened in August 2005?
Sharon had planned giving up Gaza already a few years earlier
as the US pressured him strongly.
He gave up the control in Gaza to Fatah,
followed by a coup.
Hamas emerged as winner at the elections -
and seized power from Fatah.
Sharon wanted to show the rest of the world with Gaza
that Israel does not withhold any territory,
unless it is the matter of peace.
They gave up Gaza,
so that there would be peace between Palestinians and Israel.
But it never happened.
Thousands of rockets have been fired at Israel from Gaza since then.
So giving up Gaza was a wrong move.
Current Premier Netanyahu left the government then because of it.
Had he known that Hamas comes to power in Gaza,
he would have thought again.
I remember the time after 2005,
when both US as well as Israel urged Palestinians to free elections
and were convinced that Fatah,
their negotiations partner would win
Hamas' clear victory was a surprise that changed the whole situation.
Then they called giving up Gaza a miscalculation.
The following must have been a huge disappointment for him.
He probably did not expect the thousands of rockets from Gaza.
Certainly not. He had no time to take a stance on it,
as in December of the same year he had his first stroke,
and second and third in January, which ended his premiership.
It must have been a bitter bite to the families that had to leave?
It was a tragedy Israel has yet to recover from.
Almost 3000 people have yet to be fully compensated
for the lost properties and homes they had to leave behind.
They still live in temporary housing situations.
They somewhat tested a situation -
where Israel makes a good will gesture
expecting the same from the other side, -
and it did not happen.
In the light of the peace talks it is not very encouraging.
Exactly.
They did not have to give up Gaza.
It has been much worse there after Israel's withdrawal.
40 000 Palestinians worked there, army kept order and peace.
Since Hamas took power Gaza has become a nest of anarchy.
This good will gesture should also be reflected in the new talks.
It is amazing that the rest of the world -
does not want to see a lesson in Gaza.
Should the same happen with the West Bank,
it would end badly.
After Sharon, Ehud Olmert became Prime Minister in Israel.
What happened during his term with the division of the land etc?
Civil war broke out in Gaza and Hamas seized power in 2006.
Winning the elections allowed them a democratic rulership.
Then began the rain of rockets.
Olmert was in dire straits.
He was the supporter of giving up West Bank for the Palestinian state
and he had even negotiated secretly
about the possible division plans.
After the "stoneface" Sharon he was quite a soft Premier.
Olmert had to resign,
as his own party stopped to support him.
Then Tzipi Livni came to power for a few months.
What are her positions regarding giving up land etc?
To my amazement Livni heads the peace talks right now.
In her opinion Palestine should be within the 1967. armistice lines
regardless of the fact that while Prime Minister
she had to launch operation Cast Lead as Hamas kept firing rockets
and Israel had to retaliate.
It seems that not all Israeli politicians
dare to look back in the history realistically enough,
but act based on foreign pressure.
She was succeeded by Netanyahu,
who seems to have a clearer stance.
Netanyahu is a realistic politician.
He is also the most successful Israeli politician abroad.
He was ambassador to the US, knows the intelligence people,
ministers and the Western world.
He is fluent in English which is always a bonus.
He would never have wanted to give up Gaza.
For the same reason he opposes the Palestinian State,
as he understands the true goals of the Palestinians at the talks.
In the previous show we discussed the Palestinian demand list.
What is the latest position of the US in all this?
After the outrageous demand list of the Palestinians
the US proposed their framework deal
which included the compromises of both parties
in order to bring them closer.
Israel should give up 98% of the whole West Bank
and could keep bigger settlement blocs.
In exchange it would have to compensate it with lands
from its current territory in the vicinity of Gaza and Negev.
West Bank would thus belong almost entirely to Palestinians.
The new topic here is the so-called security corridor.
What is that?
It has been discussed at the talks
but it was not part of the Palestinian demand list.
It was part of Obama's and Kerry's plan
to connect Gaza and West Bank by rail.
A railway would be built from their centers,
running on Israeli territory through Hebron and Bethlehem.
While discussing the framework deal Abbas demanded
that it would also reach Ramallah and Jericho.
And US is prepared to finance the project.
As Abbas' crew and Hamas in Gaza have held different positions,
where has this cooperation and getting together come from?
It is an interesting question.
We should look back in time to the power change in Egypt
where Hamas' mother party Muslim Brotherhood lost power
and was declared illegal after the constitution referendum.
Hamas no longer has a support system -
that would send weapons etc.
It has reduced their support and raised it for the extremists
such as Islamic Jihad etc.
Hamas must now look for cooperation with Fatah.
They have never before accepted any talks with Israel.
With the possibility to now access West Bank by rail,
they are looking for reconciliation to accept some kind of interim deal,
meaning: to recognize Israel at least for a few years.
This is quite a new initiative.
What kind of long term effect could it have if implemented?
The public was not aware of it even last year.
So the train traffic would be allowed
but there can be no stops on Israeli territory.
The Palestinians announced that they will stop where they want to.
This is all most likely a theory.
They could visit relatives and transport goods.
It could also enable to unite the currently divided people.
Thus it would have a positive effect in their inner thinking.
Looking at the conditions of the parties,
it seems that if even one of them is not granted,
the process would halt.
One of the main issues is Jerusalem. What is the story with that?
According to the US proposal Israel would have Jerusalem.
They are very aware,
at least so far all the presidents have been convinced
that Israel will stick to that demand.
Knesset decided already 30 years ago
that Jerusalem will remain their eternal and undivided capital.
Palestinians are just as resolute -
if East-Jerusalem together with the Old City, Western Wall
and Mount of Olives does not become their capital,
there will be no agreement.
This is one of the issues that could thwart the whole process.
We have often discussed refugees and their movement.
What is the US' position regarding that?
It is also a painful topic and just as absolute.
Israel would allow the return to Israel of some relative groups,
but the majority would go to the to-be Palestinian state.
The Palestininans want free right of return
to all that desire, meaning the whole Israeli territory.
It is impossible for Israel to accept that.
In the situation of democracy the Palestinians would be in majority
and would make all the decisions.
If the Arabs returning to Israel
would be granted civil rights as the current Israeli Arabs,
it would mean the end of Israeli existence.
In light of the huge land to be given up,
we have discussed also before the security issues and borders.
It has always been important to Israel to be able to defend itself.
What is the current situation at the talks here?
Currently Israel is in control of the corridor -
between Jordan and the West Bank.
According to Oslo 2 it is Area C
with Israeli security fences and manned border crossing points.
In Palestininans' opinion they and Jordanians
should control the border checkpoints in the future Palestinian state.
Jordan does not want that
and Israel will never accept it.
Their Western border would then lie on the armistice lines
i.e. near the Mediterranean, which is militarily impossible.
US should understand the reality.
Why do they prefer to follow the Palestinian demands?
They presume that peacekeeping troops will be there.
But these are always temporary
and call for the approval of both sides.
If the Palestinians get the land
and there will be US, NATO etc troops for 10 years or so,
who will then leave, the Palestinians would have the reins
and Israel would be alone and unprotected on its Eastern border
All this has now been discussed for 60 years with no avail.
If it finally gets implemented it should be permanent.
That's the solution the Palestinians want -
the border to belong to them and Jordan
and for the temporary peace troops.
But when UN, EU etc leave, Palestinians are in charge.
and Israel has no more business there.
Palestinians have announced
that not one Israeli military or civilian
will ever step on the holy soil of Palestine.
We would have a stalemate.
What happens to the settlements in Area C?
They would form huge blocs where they would move 80 000 settlers
that would be guarded by Israeli security troops.
At the moment there are approx. 350 000 settlers -
in approx. 150 settlements.
Such a compulsory evacuation of people seems impossible,
even when some of the Gazans have yet to be compensated.
Where would they put these 200 000 people suddenly?
What corridors would they build for Israel in the Palestinian state?
These would cover around 7% of the area
and would be similar to the aforementioned railway.
But they would be very vulnerable.
Already in the construction stage can they be hindered and sabotaged.
The Palestinians could call other groups and states to help
and war would be inevitable again.
The Palestinians have also demanded for their air space to be closed
for all Israeli military aircrafts.
How can Israel defend its areas within the Palestinian state?
It cannot. Only with soldiers on ground.
They will most certainly not accept the demand concerning air space.
I cannot imagine it going through.
The statements of the Palestinians
repeat Palestinian state within 1967 borders
which is the first step towards their end goal -
the destruction of Israeli state.
Being well aware of it
the US demands Palestinian state according to these aspirations
well recorded in the Palestinians' national charter
which calls the whole area, current Israel included, Palestine.
And this goal is pursued with any necessary means.
Also their school textbooks show only Palestine in the area.
It is no secret.
What kind of Palestine are they pushing by any means,
if it is unable to be a nationally independent and functioning unit
and must rely on foreign aid?
Why are they not satisfied with complete autonomy
and living in peace with Israel,
without needing to threaten anyone?
These demands will never materialize.
There must be deeper roots
to the obsessive pushing of the Palestinian State.
What are they?
I would look at the Bible prophecies.
I wrote an article titled "Are they now dividing my land?"
which refers to Joel 3:2, where it is said
that during end times, which is quite at hand,
the Lord would gather the nations to the valley of Jehoshaphat
to judge those that divided the land of Israel.
At the moment we are at a place -
where the division of the land is inevitable.
Sharon's passing raises a question
whether there are any Bible prophecies related to it?
I would not directly associate them.
This is rather a political and national context to things.
Sharon's death was shamelessly celebrated in Palestinian territories.
When a man, that had been comatozed for 8 years, died,
they burned his posters in PO and gave out sweets to the people.
As if it was some grand event
to boost the national pride of the Palestinians,
they said that Allah had punished one of Israel's criminal leaders.
Such a distorted understanding
reflects their whole mentality in the peace process and everything.
We will continue this topic throughout the whole spring.
Next time we will most likely discuss issues pertaining to Iran.
Thanks for today's show! See you next time!
Translation: Monika Jaaguri