Welcome to Jerusalem Studio!
Today we will discuss Israel's right to its land.
For starters, I will read from the book cover
of our expert guest Pekka Sartola:
"Historic facts talk about Israel's right to its land,
but why isn't this discussed?"
That's our topic today, and UN's role in it.
- Welcome, Pekka! - Thank you.
- I would like to read an excerpt, where a question is asked
whether this is what UN wants as well.
"In July of 2011, before the president of PA
Mahmoud Abbas applied for the observer state status in UN,
he said: "When Palestine is an independent state,
I will guarantee,
that not one Jew steps on the holy soil of Islam.
When Jerusalem is ours, I swear that not one non-muslim
will step between the walls of the old city."
If the mentality of the PA's leader is so strict,
in addition he wants his state to be Jew-free,
that nothing there would refer to the Jews,
how is it possible to hold talks when a partner has such an attitude?
- It is impossible. We have a stalemate.
It will remain so for a long time.
When attitudes run so deep, it is difficult to make any progress.
No radical agreements can be made.
If one party tells the UN, the world and the Western media one thing
and quite the opposite to its own people ...
When talking about the Jew-free Palestine
he used the Nazi term 'judenrein' in his speech,
that the Nazis used in WW2 when talking about Europe.
This should also be discussed in the West using the right terms.
- Let's begin with the fall of 1917, the end of the Ottoman reign,
when the British Mandate began and the Balfour declaration was heard.
Let's see, what was agreed and which agreements are still valid.
On the screen is the Balfour Declaration
or the statement of the then Brittish Foreign Minister,
where it was stated, that after the end of the war,
(peace agreement was signed two months later),
the territories will be divided in a certain way.
The territory mentioned by the Balfour Declaration
covered Jordan, Golan, West Bank, Israel and Gaza.
This was the actual territory the Britts suggested
for the League of Nations to give to the Jews for their national home.
The League of Nations approved it on 24.04.1920 in San Remo.
These were the intentions regarding the territories.
- Isn't that decision still the basis of agreement research today?
- Yes. The first San Remo decision was made in 1920.
Then something happened.
They found oil in the area which changed the attitudes.
This also led to the battle for the independence of Saudi Arabia
the territory of which was also under the British Mandate.
The Saudis won the battle and Britain had to do something.
The national home promised to the Jews was divided in two.
We are talking about the area that includes modern Jordan,
and the white area left out,
was meant for the national home for the Jews,
although it was only 23% of the original.
That was also approved as justified by the League of Nations.
That was on 24.07.1922.
This document is the only still valid partition document
based on international law.
- This area includes Gaza, the West Bank, Golan
and Israel's current territory.
The whole area should have belonged to the Jewish nation.
- Yes. I am not a lawyer but an investigative journalist.
Dozens of specialists of international law
and the British National Archives have confirmed
that juridically this is the only still valid document.
It was included as is in the UN constitution.
When the League of Nations ended its activity in 1945
and UN was founded in 1946, the two organizations
functioned inside each other, so to speak.
Agreements, finances and personnel of the LN went to UN,
which was later joined by the US.
These LN decisions were included in the UN constitution.
This is a valid document.
- It says "Jewish Palestine".
The word 'Palestine' is a bit confusing here,
as it has never been a state,
but stems from the ancient name of Syria-Philistea
this area used to be called once.
- Roman emperor Hadrianus gave the area that name
after 135 AD.
There was no independent state until Israel was founded in 1948.
It was sort of a Palestinian Mandate of the Great Britain.
That's why the map says Jewish Palestine,
as they were not independent yet.
- What happened in 1947?
What happened before Israel declared its independence?
- UN was founded, which based on LN documents
gave independence to Jordan that used to be called Transjordan,
as well as Syria, Lebanon and Iraq.
The Saudis became independent in 1932, and Egypt in 1922.
After the WW2 and holocaust it was a general thought
that the Jews must get their own state.
The Brits did not consider it so inevitable
as they depended on the Arab oil,
and they had a weighty role in the newly founded UN.
They wanted to get rid of their Mandate.
It was only leftovers of the war.
They left the whole package up to the UN to decide.
UN held a session on 29.11.1947
where one decision and two suggestions were adopted.
UN decided against its charter
which already included the LN's San Remo resolution of 24.07.1922
that allocated the whole area, including Golan, to the Jewish state,
that the territory will be divided once more in two -
an Arab and a Jewish state,
and issued a cartographic suggestion for it.
This is an original map I found among UN documents.
According to their suggestion
two states could live peacefully side by side in that area.
An extremely naive thought that did not consider the situation.
- Nor the earlier decisions.
- Exactly. It is the bizarrest that they ignored their charter
which two years earlier included as binding
all the LN's decisions based on international law.
- The Arabs of the area lived there peacefully
without any aspirations for independence.
But then arose a powerful leader who began to drive it.
- In 1922 the regional chief Herbert Samuel
appointed Amin el-Husseini as the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem.
He became the spiritual leader of the local Arabs.
He was a pathological hater of Jews
whose background could be analyzed psychologically from many aspects
but not in this context.
He began to propagate his beliefs
as though the Jews destroyed Islamic holy places.
He presented the idea of Jerusalem as an important Islamic site
although their holy cities are Mekka and Medina.
He exalted Jerusalem to the same status, claiming,
that Mohammed made his famous night journey namely from there.
- This is where the offensive of that other spiritual power began.
- That's it exactly.
If people would only understand these powers better.
Nothing else gives the situation a more logical explanation.
It gives you at least an idea
why they are so fanatical and ferocious about their vision.
- When observing the attitude of Europe towards Israel in all this,
it seems, that Great Britain has constantly created obstacles.
- It is true. It is amazing how powerfully the Brits -
Premier Benjamin Israeli, obviously of Jewish origin,
Lloyd George ja Arthur Balfour -,
influenced the idea of an independent Jewish state in the 19th century.
Later, unfortunately, the oil became an important factor.
Wars followed with desperate needs for fuel.
This was also one of Hitler's motives.
Oil deficit was rampant and the Saudis bathed in it.
- You said that independent states were born around the area in 1947.
When Israel declared its independence in May of 1948
its freshly independent neighbours came together
against the Jewish state.
- It is also bizarre that all of them -
Syria, Lebanon, Iraq and Jordan - gained their independence
based on the same LN's San Remo decisions
between WW1 and WW2, just like Israel after WW2.
There could have been grateful Arab states in the area
that had enough space
to practice their religious and ethnic aspirations,
without trying to wipe out the smallest factor Israel.
- When Israel was founded 600 000 Jews lived in the area.
- Pretty much. Around 250 000 survived the holocaust
and around 400 000 lived there before.
They were only happy for the oportunity to get an area
for independent living.
They accepted UN's suggestion with the condition
that the other party accepts it, too.
They probably did not have much weapons.
No. That war was a miracle of God.
Israel would not have survived it unless it was the will of God
and the fulfillment of prophecies.
With Resolution 181 it is important to notice,
that it was only supposed to last for 10 years.
They wanted to create in the region the Economic Union of Palestine
where parties were expected to coexist together peacefully.
After ten years, similarly with Jerusalem,
a referendum was to be held on how to continue.
As independent states? As independent Jerusalem?
Or as an Arab Jerusalem?
Or in the composition of the Jewish State?
- Were they being careful when prescribing
such a 10-year trial period?
They were most likely looking back to the UN charter
and did not want to completely bulldoze all the earlier decisions.
They wanted to leave room for the participants
to decide their fate on their own.
- Hatred against Israel accumulated until 1967
when the neighboring states launched a blitz attack against it.
The left map shows the situation after the War of Independence
in 1948 - 1949 that lasted till 1967.
The West Bank and Gaza are separate areas.
This is the map of the agreement between Israeli and Jordanian armies.
It was not a border agreement between states
but an agreement signed between armies in 1949.
Jordan united the West Bank with its territories in 1950.
This was not brought before UN nor Arab League for approval.
Only Great Britain recognized Jordan's right to the West Bank.
Pakistan was second to recognize Jordan's right to the West Bank
as well as to East-Jerusalem.
- Great Britain in action again. - That's right.
Now we come to an interesting situation.
The map on the right pictures the situation before the 1967 war.
It is good to recall
that the Palestinian Liberation Organization was founded in 1964
when the so-called Palestinians living on the West Bank
were Jordanian citizens.
They were not interested in claiming the West Bank from Jordan
for the independent Palestinian state as they knew
that Palestine and Jordan were pretty much the same thing.
They formed a terror organization that still exists
with the aim to obliterate the independent Jewish state Israel.
Also Egypt, the Saudis, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon
were involved in the war.
Similarly to the Independence War
their aim was to destroy the Jewish state.
- Like a cuckoo in the nest.
- The war was catastrophic for Israel's neighbors.
We should bear in mind what followed the war:
the resolution of three 'nevers'.
19.06.1967 Israel proposed to all the Arab states that attacked it
to return all the conquered areas in return for a peace deal.
The Arab states and PLO held a session on 1.09
in Khartoum, Sudan, where 3 decisions were made:
Never to recognize Israel;
never make peace with Israel;
never negotiate with Israel.
Then UN stepped in.
Israel had no negotiations partner.
All the Arab states had excluded it.
Israel had to take care of Sinai and other conquered areas.
Excluding Sinai, Israel restored the territorial situation
that was established with the LN decision in 1922.
It included Golan, West Bank and Gaza,
that had been allocated for Israel.
The aim of the still relevant UN Resolution 242
is to reach a lasting peace in the Middle East.
Palestinians were not mentioned. They were Jordanians.
The goal of the Resolution was to get Israel and its neighbors
to sign peace deals.
After such peace Israel can withdraw from some areas
which are agreed upon with the Arab states.
The Palestinians were irrelevant
although they are of a different opinion nowadays.
- They did not want to have anything to do with Israel,
they don't want any peace nor to recognize Israel.
The UN had nothing left but to discuss and conclude,
but not having executive power, it is like a consultant
that can only advise.
But if one party does not adhere, what can you do?
- There's nothing you can do.
I would like to stress Resolution 242.
Both our government as well as other parties refer to it
as it would demand from Israel all kinds of things.
It calls Israel to withdraw only from the areas of the states
that sign a peace deal with it and agree on mutual borders.
It was compiled by 3 experts:
US Under-Secretary of State professor Rostov,
British UN Ambassador lord Caradon
and US Supreme Court judge Arthur Goldberg.
In 1974 Rostov said in an interview:
"Resolution 242 I helped to compile then
calls the parties (Israel, Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, Saudis)
to make peace, but allows Israel to govern conquered areas
until lasting and fair peace is established in Middle East."
They talk about Middle East.
"When such a peace is achieved, Israel must withdraw
from areas conquered in 1967 war, but not from all areas,
but only from those that based on the future peace talks
guarantee Israel fair and secure borders."
- What do they mean by Middle-East?
- They mean Israel and its neighboring Arab countries.
Perhaps also Iraq and some parts of North Africa.
But mainly those.
- We could ask today: where is that peace?
- There's no peace anywhere.
The only peace is in the democratic state of Israel.
- When came the demand for Israel to be able to defend its borders?
- It is included in Resolution 242.
Last year, on November 29,
the Palestinians applied for the observer state status in UN.
They referred to Resolution 242
and added a few prescriptions of their own:
"Israel must withdraw from Palestinian areas,
that they occupied in 1967, including East-Jerusalem."
242 does not say anything like it.
It only concerned Israel and its neighbor states.
Only 20 years later they focus on the issues of Palestinians and Israel.
- During last decades they have acted on wishes and wants
thinking that the Palestinians' demands
have some kind of a legal basis.
- Palestinians' demands are a fantasy.
In the light of LN decisions, UN resolutions and charter,
the Palestinians' demand for their own state within Israel
is only based on their desire for it.
They lived on that territory for 19 years as Jordanians,
which is not a basis for a state. If they want anything
they must agree about it with Israel.
They have to negotiate
and agree on secure and recognized borders.
- They must negotiate and agree.
If one party does not want to negotiate constantly
but only sets preconditions they agree with,
there's no negotiations. - It is quite difficult.
According to 242 the borders must be secure and recognized.
Palestinians refuse to recognize Israel as Jewish state.
They define the whole territory as independent Palestinian state.
Their goal is to turn the whole area into Palestine,
and all areas under Israeli reign are occupied Palestine.
- We have discussed about the tiny size of the area.
If Israel must secure its borders, it is an extremely difficult issue.
- That's right.
Israel signed a peace deal with Egypt and returned Sinai to them in 1979.
They completely followed Resolution 242.
In 1994 they signed a peace deal with Jordan
who made no claims regarding West Bank nor Jerusalem.
In that regard Israel has acted with all correctness.
- We did not complete again.
We will continue next time with the 1973 war,
the Oslo Accords and the modern day.
Thanks for watching! See you next time.
Bye-bye!
Translation: Monika Jaaguri