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Welcome to Jerusalem Studio!
This time our topic with Pekka Sartola,
who knows a lot in this area,
is whether Israel is an illegal state or an occupier or what.
We will discuss this in the light of the Bible
and history, we will cover WW I and onward.
- You are writing a book on this topic.
These issues must be fresh on your mind.
- Yes. The decision for this book came rather quickly
and covers controversial topics,
such as Israel's right to build,
are they occupying the area or is there a legal basis for it.
Most important for us is the spiritual aspect
or what does God say in the Bible about the rights He gave His people.
Although the world does not refer to the spiritual side of things,
for us they are essential, and so are they for Israel.
And in the end this is what determines the context
and the rights also in the future.
- Abraham was promised in the Bible the lands and borders etc.
But politics discards those things.
- Unfortunately yes. It seems as they are rewriting history.
Arab media rewrites history as it suits them.
They have different dates for the end of the WW I etc.
Based on that they construct their own imagery about things.
Some things that are cast in stone, like the status of Jerusalem,
is a spiritual issue for them, which it cannot be,
as the Koran does not mention Jerusalem at all.
Still they stress those things, and it is amazing
that the international community of Europe and the West
seems to follow these new ideas willingly.
Antisemitism and anti-israelism seem to be in fashion right now.
Everything to do with Palestinians, Islam and etc,
seem to be more acceptable without any specific justification.
The title of my book is "Why is this not discussed?"
and was published in March.
- Bible talks about God as the God of covenants.
The covenants He has made in the Bible hold.
What kind of covenants have there been
and which was the first?
- Israel was born from the covenant between Abraham and God.
It is also strongly tied to the mission given to Abraham
on Mount Moriah to sacrifice his son Isaac.
Although it never happened, even though Abraham was willing,
but he was stopped, it was the focal point,
where God testified that in Abraham He has found a man that pleases Him
and He promised to bless him and his descendants forever.
In the same event we can also find a Messianic thought line.
This covenant was confirmed to Isaac and Jacob
and it was fulfilled after the slavery years in Egypt
when Israel returned to the land God had promised to Abraham.
- In addition to being a God of covenants,
God is also a God of numbers.
There are many numbers in the Bible, such as 400 years, number 7 etc.
What do you think about those numbers?
- It is true, and very fascinating to follow how these numbers repeat.
Israel was in slavery for 400-430 years,
the prophets were quiet for 400 years.
The Ottoman empire was in power in the area for 400 years
before the state of Israel was born.
Numbers 6, 3,5 and 7 also appear in different forms -
3,5 years or time, times and half a time.
Jesus' ministry lasted for 3,5 years, as will the time of the Antichrist.
This calls for a separate Bible study.
- I once saw a calculation about the time, times and half a time.
Israel as a nation was erased from Roman books in 135 AD
and Israel was born as a state in 1948.
There's more than 1800 years between those dates,
When analysed based on times, time and half a time,
we get three numbers that are all dividable by 7.
This indicates in a way that 1948 is a year appointed by God.
- Yes. More attention should be given to God's appointed times.
When the Bible talks about specific time frames, like 490 years,
they get fulfilled as said, whether people accept them or not.
Israel's disappearance from the history books
can even be timed with these numbers.
Their first revolt was between 66-72 AD,
when the temple in Jerusalem was destroyed.
The second revolt 65 years later led to the disappearance of Israel
from Roman maps.
Jerusalem became Aelia Capitolina
and Judah was added to the province of Syria-Philistea,
from which the name Palestine was later derived.
- It is quite amazing that a nation having been dispersed
all over the world for 1800 years, they maintain their culture,
synagogues etc. Probably nobody could imagine
that in 1948 the state of Israel is born.
- That is true.
Such a miracle could happen only by divine hand.
This is one of the greatest miracles.
Even some statesmen understand that and say
that even the existance of the Jewish State is a miracle,
when you think about everything that happened to them in diasporaa.
They have given to the mankind the most
in the areas of medical science, civilization, technology,
although they form a tiny percentage of the whole population of the world.
Clear divine guidance can be seen in the history of that nation.
They are witnesses to the actions of God.
- When it can be thus pointed that there is a God that acts
and fulfills His plans, it reminds me of the Scripture:
The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.
How is it possible that most of the world's leaders
have forsaken it, even though they should understand
that one day they will be accountable for it.
- 100 years ago things were different.
This is the curse of the modern society.
As we are focusing also on the spiritual aspects,
we could also consider that Israel's return to their land
has been a eschatological focal point of the Bible history,
which has also started the countdown for the destruction of the devil.
He has increased his activities,
experienced first hand by our generation -
lawlessness, drugs, wars, hunger, earthquakes etc -,
have increased very fast only during a few last decades.
- When we look at our topic today: Is Israel the occupier
and an illegal state?, where would we begin?
- As we have covered the biblical background of it,
now let's look at the events beginning from the WW I.
WW I was a turning point in the whole Middle East politics.
It changed the whole world.
What comes to our topic, the Ottoman Empire,
that had ruled the area for 400 years ceased to exist.
Turkish Islamic regime was replaced by victors of the war
of whom England and France divided in the Middle-East.
All these areas had been under the power of Turkey.
There was not one independent state in the area,
even though the names of the provinces were the same
as their respective states today.
- How did they begin to solve this? Did the League of the Nations exist?
- It was established on January 25, 1919.
WW1 ended two years earlier.
Already during the end stages of the war it was clear
what will happen.
Turkey's collapse was only a question of time.
The allies had already made agreements
regarding the Arab groups and nations in the region
as the desire for independence of those nations had increased
as they saw the 400 year old Ottoman regime about to fall.
Great Britain and France drafted agreements
regarding the future division of the areas into independent states.
- So all the Middle East countries that were under the Ottoman rule
are quite young states?
- Yes. And based on that they have no moral right to claim
that they are independent historic states,
except for Egypt which is older than Israel
according to Bible history.
Almost all other Middle-East states were born between two World Wars.
- When did the name Palestine was taken into use?
- Palestine as a name came to be already 1800 years earlier
when Hadrianus toppled the revolt in 135 AD.
The name of the whole region was then changed.
Judah as a province was changed into Philistea
and Jerusalem as a city name was lost for 200 years.
It used to be a Roman garrison called Aelia Capitolina.
During Constantine's reign Jerusalem's name was reinstated.
The name Palestine stems from the Syria-Philistea situation.
During the Ottoman reign this area was considered
as one of Syria's southern provinces.
Galilea was part of the province of Beirut.
Negev was part of Egypt, but all of it under Ottoman reign.
- Can we say that all the people living in the area were Arabs?
- There were Arabs and others, also English, Europeans, Russians,
lots of Turks. Arabs were just one part of them.
In the middle of the 19th century when the Suez Canal was opened
it became a new hotspot in the Middle East.
Lots of missionary work was established at the time
in Israel's territories then.
There were hospitals and churches that still exist today.
It became a central location in the area that drew people.
Also the Jewish immigration began at the same time.
I will bring you back to your own land,
said God through Ezekiel.
- As there were many nationalities present,
there must have been Jews as well?
- Jewish immigration began in the middle of the 19th century.
During WW I there was about 10% of them in the area.
Arabs formed two thirds of the local population,
the rest were other nationalities.
According to Encyclopedia Britannica published those times
50 different languages were spoken in the region,
over 20 of them were Arab dialects.
There was not one Palestinian group that could have said
that this is their historic land where they have lived
from the beginning of times. It was a melting pot of nations
which became the focus of the Jewish immigration.
- Was it Theodor Herzl that headed Jewish thinking
in the end of the 19th century?
- Yes. He was inspired by the Dreyfuss trial,
where a Jewish officer was sentenced in France
based on false allegations. He was later exhonerated.
But Herzl saw that it is allowed to mistreat the Jews
and called together the first Zionist Congress in 1898
where it was concluded that they need their own state.
Herzl wrote: Today I established the Jewish State.
It will not happen in 5 years but in 50 years.
It happened exactly 50 years later.
So he must have had a prophetic vision.
- Is it correct to say that right after that declaration
the spirit of Antichrist arose among the Palestinian Arabs
with the ideas of independence? This is when the forces arose
to oppose the birth of the Jewish state.
- The timing definitely seems right.
Earlier there was no independent group
driving the Jewish State.
In 1898 Herzl organized the Jewish Congress,
then was the WW I, and about 10 years later,
Great Britain made its declarations which were ratified
by the League of Nations.
The Jews were allocated the eternal right to live
in their national home, in their own state.
The Balfour Declaration was in 1917 and was ratified 3 year later.
- How did the idea of the Palestinian state came to be
and where came the idea to resist the birth of the Jewish State?
- It is largely connected with the ownership of the land.
Turkish regime had about 150 large property owners in the area.
The Turkish state also owned a lot of land.
Major property owners rented the land to the farmers.
When the Jews like Montefiori, the Rothchilds etc
began to buy the land the prices sky-rocketed
and the land owners became filthy rich.
The problem was that the farmers that had rented the land
and worked there were left with nothing -
homeless and jobless.
Grand Mufti Aminel Hussein turned this into a religious issue -
Zionists are conquering areas that belong to Islam.
From this time onward it has been engraved
in the minds of the Palestinians that they were violently driven out
from their eternal historic land by Zionists.
- As Britain and France were the main countries
that led the division of the land, what did they promise,
especially to the Jewish nation?
- Great Britain promised to the Jews in 1917 when the war was still on
that they were guaranteed a national home in the region
that was to be divided. The borders were not yet determined.
This was done 3 years later by the League of Nations.
Great Britain's Palestinian Mandate covered modern Israel, Gaza, Golan
and also modern Jordan.
This whole area was allocated for the national home of the Jews.
It was approved in April of 1920 at the League's Assembly
and henceforth backed by international law.
It was also approved in two sessions of the US Congress.
USA was not a member state of the League of the Nations.
And for the fourth time it was approved two years later,
in 1922, by the Assembly of the League of Nations.
The whole area was meant for the Jews as their national home.
In addition, Britain controlled Iraq, and Egypt,
which became independent that same year,
and Saudi Arabia.
France controlled Syria and modern Lebanon.
In 1922 Britian gave Golan to France
as there were hardly any Jewish settlements,
mostly the Druze lived there which were related to Syrians.
Although they had no independent state
it was all the same area.
They got the mandate and allocated Transjordan for themselves,
drove the Jews out and called this solely Palestinian area.
The real Palestinian State in the Middle East is the modern Jordan.
- The decisions that you mentioned must have signed proof.
- During past 6 months I've gone through
all the documents of the League of Nations,
which are publicly available.
Also UN documents, Mandate maps etc are available.
- As far as I understand, none of them have been annulled.
Why aren't they followed and enforced?
- Good question.
When the League of Nations was established,
it had 47 member countries. Finland joined 1922.
At the most there were 57 member states.
It was the highest international decision making organ
that determined certain international agreements
which were adopted as international law.
There was no higher organ at those times.
Those agreements were considered binding.
When the League of Nations ceased to exist,
transferred its finances, rights and commitments to UN,
all these previous agreements were still in force.
Why they don't dig them up must be due to the politics
that began in 1922 when they started to think
that the area belongs to the Palestinians
and the rights of the Jews were discarded.
Holocaust and WW II followed
where their rights were discarded even further.
The documents Great Britain drew to annul its former decisions
can also be found in great numbers.
For some reason the ideas advertised by the enemy of our soul
according to which the return of the Jews,
establishing of their own state must be stopped,
were extremely powerful those times.
- And as I understand the UN has no right
to divide the land in the region.
- No. UN has some authority, but it is mostly advisory.
It is presumed that the members in the region follow its decisions
and the UN can only use sanctions when they are not.
Like they have done with Iran.
UN cannot go and bomb Iran's nuclear facilities.
They don't have such military power or equipment.
They establish economic sanctions and make Iran's life difficult.
- It has been argued whether Israel is an illegal occupier
or a legal state
and it seems that media draws the former conclusion.
- Yes. When Israel became independent everybody understood their rights.
It was only a few years since the Holocaust.
Now things have turned around when Israel is capable to defend itself
and act based on the rights given to them before.
- This topic is vast and we will continue discussing it
in four weeks or some time in the future.
We will try to find the answer to this question -
is Israel an illegal occupant or a legal state.
Thanks for watching
and welcome back to follow Jerusalem Studio in the future!
Subtitles: Monika Jaaguri