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Welcome to Jerusalem Studio!
My expert guest is yet again Pekka Sartola.
- Welcome! - Thank you.
- Last time we discussed Jerusalem and its history.
Today we will focus on Israel and Palestine.
For starters, what is the biblical basis
for Israel to be where it is?
- Going 4000 years back in time, God made a covenant with Abraham,
renewed it, and renewed it again with the offspring of Abraham,
Isaac and Jaacob,
not with Ismael as islam claims.
God made these covenants based on His sovereign right as Creator.
He has created everything and He has the right to give an area
for habitation for a nation.
Israel is the sole land in the Bible that was allocated to one nation.
- When Abraham arrived in the promised land,
did he have a covenant with God?
- Yes, God made a covenant with him.
The first of them is mentioned in Genesis 13:7-18, especially 14-15.
"The Lord said to Abram, after Lot had separated from him,
“Lift up your eyes and look from the place where you are,
northward and southward and eastward and westward,
for all the land that you see I will give to you
and to your offspring forever."
Abraham was then in a place called Shechem in Central Israel.
- In the light of this passage we are dealing with God's covenant
and a mandate given by God.
Is it so that those that do not honor God's covenants
do not honor God?
- Yes. We have no right to choose something from the Bible
as it suits us, and ignore everything else.
Everything must be checked as a complete revelation,
God does not make mistakes; everything must be in harmony.
For assurance God renewed that covenant in Genesis 15:18 -
On that day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying,
“To your offspring I give this land, from the river of Egypt
to the great river, the river Euphrates."
This was fulfilled during David's, Salomon's and Saul's kingdoms.
During Salomon the kingdom reached from Euphrates till El Arish in Sinai.
- What happened after Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD?
- The uprising of the Jews began in 66 AD.
Vespasian was the emperor, his son Titus commanded the army
and crushed the uprising. He also burned down the Temple,
which was most likely an accident. The treasures of the Temple however
were taken northward and could perhaps be found in Rome.
This was followed by a grave period in the history of the Jews.
65 years later another uprising was crushed.
Emperor Hadrian completely changed the status of the land of Israel
and Jerusalem.
The city became a Roman garrison and was called Aelia Capitolina.
The Temple Mount was leveled to the ground;
the Valleys of Kidron and Hinnom were turned into dump sites;
the whole area was united with the Province of Syria
and it was called Syria Palaestina.
The goal was to destroy from the area everything relating to the Jews;
he wanted to embarrace the Jews
that had faught with the Philistines their whole history.
Later the name became Palestine.
- When they talk about an independent Palestinian state
it is actually derived from the name Syria Palaestina?
- Yes. It was officially POI Philistea
which became Palestine,
and was used almost 2000 years as Jews were scattered in diaspora.
There was no people to claim their rights.
God's timing was not ready. It was not yet time
for the people to return and fulfill the prophecies of Ezekiel
and others regarding the return of God's people to their land.
- According to my understanding the Philistines no longer exist.
- Correct. They were last mentioned in 700 BC.
The Palestinians claim today that the ancient Philistines
are their forefathers, and already then, 3000 years ago,
the Jews tried to rob them of their land, people and rights.
When King Saul faught the Philistines on Mount Gilboa in the Bible,
and was also killed in that battle, it is mentioned in several places
that he was fighting the uncircumcised.
When Palestinians claim to be the children of Abraham,
with whom God had a covenant of circumcision,
it refutes their Philistine heritage.
- Thus the people calling themselves Palestinians
are actually Syrians?
- Yes. The current Palestinians have arrived in the area
during past 150 years from the surrounding Arab countries.
There has been no homogeneous Palestinian people in the history;
they have had no state borders, king, government, flag, currency etc.
Both the word and the people of Palestine is an artificial invention.
- The West has been taking it for granted
that there is a historic Palestinian people
who have a right to their own state.
According to the afforementioned there has been no such thing.
How come they have not read history?
What keeps them from understanding the truth?
- I could pose the question differently.
Why isn't God's Word taken seriously even in Christian circles, countries
and by state leaders claiming to be Christian?
They prefer to follow humanitarian, military, trade
and political conditions.
We must remember also the attempts of the enemy of our soul
to hinder the fulfillment of God's plan,
including the State of Israel.
Its fate continues to be tied with the ancient prophecies
and their fulfillment.
Keeping prophecies from being fulfilled is the devil's job
and he will try to keep Israelites from fulfilling them.
- Let's move on in time.
Almost 400 years the Middle East was reinged by the Turkish Ottomans.
What do you say about that period?
- At first we looked at the biblical God-given rights to Israel
for living in that land.
God is very smart and He made sure
that this right is also covered with international law.
The Ottoman Empire then covered areas from Turkey to Iraq,
Saudi Arabia and Egypt and everything in between -
areas where we now see about a dozen Arab states.
After the end of World War I in 1917
these areas had been under the Ottoman reign for 4 centuries.
The Allies won the war; the Turks had to give up power
and the Allies divided the area between themselves as mandates.
France got Lebanon and Syria;
Great Britain got Egypt, then Palestine,
Saudi Arabia and Iraq.
They planned to establish independent states in the area.
The League of the Nations joined the project.
- They made some important declarations, one of them in 1917.
- On November 2nd, 1917,
then British foreign minister Arthur Balfour
presented the declaration approved by his government
to the Zionist organisations through Jewish banker Rothschild.
This was the official position of the British government at the time
and went as follows:
"His Majesty's government view with favour the establishment
in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people,
and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this goal
it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done
which may prejudice the civil and religious rights
of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine,
or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."
This declaration described the British idea at the time
to create in the area both the national home for the Jews
as well as national homes for the Arab nations.
- They used the term 'non-Jewish', not Palestinians,
meaning Arabs.
- Correct. They wanted to create a national home for Jewish people
and divide other nations as well.
There were many immigrants from Europe, Central Asia, Africa.
They were defined as 'non-Jewish'.
- After World War I they tried to figure out
how all these countries will be established in the area
and how the territories are divided between the Jews and Arabs.
What happened then?
- Several different countries were established.
Created in 1917, the League of Nations held sessions
and in 1920 and 1922 they held two official Assemblies
where it was agreed that the national home of the Jews
will include the whole modern Israel, including the West Bank and Gaza,
plus Jordan.
The whole area was meant as the national home for the Jews.
Something happened between Great Britain and France
that diminished the area.
In 1922 they divided from it the modern Jordan,
which was then called Transjordan.
Israel got their modern territory, including the Golan Heights.
This area got the final approval as the national home of the Jews.
Other states were also established at the time.
Turkey and Syria became states; Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Egypt -
all got their independence after the reign of the Ottoman Empire
thanks to the activities of the Allies after WWI.
Now they want to rid the Jews even of that little national home.
- Let's move on in time, to WWII in 1940ies and onward,
when the League of the Nations ends and UN is formed.
What happens during this transition period?
- The US was not part of the League. The Democrates and the Republicans
could not agree about the membership and USA had observer status.
Geopolitical changes were enormous at the time anyway,
thus it was deemed that the 51-member League of the Nations
in that form was no longer able to deal with international challenges.
The United Nations was established and took over the role
of the League of the Nations, drew itself a constitution,
where it was established that all the previous decisions
of the League of the Nations will remain in tact
and become part of UN's constitution. It also covered the issue
of the Mandate for Palestine. Israel was not yet established
and thus they called the area Palestine,
according to the British Mandate for Palestine.
UN created their game rules and included in their constitution
certain articles from the League's Mandate for Palestine.
They can be found in Paragraphs 76B, 77 and 80, which establish
that the borders approved by the League of the Nations
obligate UN to promote the creation of independent states
in the abovementioned territories.
It means that according tothe borders in 1922
when the LN made the decision Israel should have the whole area.
That should be UN's objective.
- Could the General Assembly annul it from UN's constitution?
- No. The Assembly cannot annul the decisions of the constitution.
They may adopt decisions, but they must first be approved
by the Security Council,
and after their approval they become binding.
The constitution cannot be changed only because some bloc
may currently enjoy majority in the UN;
otherwise the whole process would be arbitrary.
Finnish Declaration of Independence cannot be changed either.
- You said that they should endeavor to establish independent states.
How was the Jewish State established and how did UN help along?
- UN held a session on November 29, 1947,
concerning the Mandate for Palestine.
It was decided that the Britts will end their mandate in 6 months.
They agreed at the session that the area will be divided again into
a Jewish state and an Arab state. Now Golan was already separated,
it was part of the 1922 agreement between Great Britain and France,
not part of the decision of the League of the Nations.
The area of the Jewish state was reduced in favor of Transjordan
in a way that they got only 13% of the national home
allocated for them before.
- Did Holocaust and the events of the WWII
affect Great Britain and the rest of the world
so that they were ready to facilitate the creation of the Jewish State?
- On November 29, 1947, at the UN General Assembly
a vote was held about that partition. Great Britain was against it.
Their endeavors in facilitating the birth of the Jewish State
did not last for very long.
General Assembly, however, approved the partition,
but they did not define how it should be done.
They only issued a suggestion, as they had accepted before
in their constitution a decision that the whole area belongs to Israel.
The wording was so vague that it calls for the agreement
between the Jews and non-Jews living in the area.
General Assembly proposed at the same session
that Jerusalem remain an international city
with a free entrance for all nations and religions.
It was in the middle of an Arab region.
It would have been a major change to the decision.
We see on the map
that there are two militarily impossible hubs;
the area would have been split even into 3 parts for the Jews.
- It was an extraordinary decision because they knew
the Arab enemies did not want a Jewish state there ever.
- Exactly. That decision launched the first wars
and the outflow of refugees from the area.
It did not happen in 1948 after Israel gained independence
but half a year earlier.
The Arab League stated repeatedly that should the Jewish State be born
and gain independence in the area after the British leave,
they will be utterly destroyed; they talked about bloodshed etc.
- Thus the hatred we see today existed already then?
- Yes. It is very difficult to explain it
without understanding the religious context -
what God has promised and what the enemy tries to do.
- By now UN has dealt with these issues for years
and tried to find a solution
to establish two independent states in the area.
It seems the establishment of the Palestinian state is considered
the solution that should end all the problems in the Middle East.
- Exactly. President of Egypt proposed to UN recently,
when Syria was discussed, that the Palestinian state
and their UN membership are more important.
And all the while they talk about occupation.
I have never understood what is the basis for claims
that Israel occupies anything.
- At the negotiations after 1948 and between the wars
the Palestinians were promised autonomy or an independent state
in borders that do not exist, and they talk about occupation.
On what grounds is occupation mentioned
when there has been no independent state?
- That is a bizarre issue.
Because of some international "hocus-pocus" it is accepted as such.
After the War of Independence in 1949 borders were formed -
Jordan's Arab Legion and Israeli army agreed on
the so-called Green Line, the cease-fire line between 2 armies,
which included the West Bank that Jordan illegally annexed.
The first illegal occupant in the territories was Jordan,
whose borders had been established in 1922.
They united the whole area called West Bank with its territory
including East-Jerusalem and the old city.
They drove out all Jews, destroyed 55 synagogues and yeshivas
and vandalized tombstones.
They practiced brutal occupation policy
that UN did not interfere with in any way.
Besides Pakistan, not one Arab state recognized Jordan's legal right
to the territory.
Also Egypt occupied Gaza completely illegally,
as their borders were also defined in 1922.
When Israel captured the areas during 1967 war,
threw out the illegal occupant
and restored the territory in the form
the LN had allocated for them and as UN's partition decision defined,
so they could have held talks if needed for the two state solution,
Israel was suddenly called the occupant.
They cannot occupy an area Jordan has illegally occupied.
Israel changed the area how it was supposed to be.
The same goes for Golan. It was promised them 50 years ago.
But Syria claims that it belongs to them.
- The same is with Gaza that was unlawfully occupied by Egypt.
- Exactly. They had no right for it.
Gaza was turned into a dump site - inhabited with asocial people
and training camps of Fedayeens
from where constant terror attacks were launched against Israel.
Gaza's situation was the best between 1967-1979
when governed by Israel.
Gaza was one of the region's most flourishing places.
These are truly very disputable areas
and it is difficult for me to accept the usage of the term 'occupation'.
- In the given circumstances Israel feels increasingly alone.
Although the US supports them, in what extent can Israel trust
that USA supports them in every situation?
- USA's endeavors are currently influenced by presidential elections.
It is a very political issue where oil plays a role as well.
We must remember that God has decided
and His decisions are binding.
- We will continue these topics in four weeks.
Thank you for being with us.
Watch us again in a month time.
Translation: Monika Jaaguri